Talk:John Roberts Jr (billiards player)

Cue sports High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cue sports, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of pool, carom billiards and other cue sports on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Cue sportsWikipedia:WikiProject Cue sportsTemplate:WikiProject Cue sportscue sports articles

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WikiProject Cue sports to-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : Lots of high-priority articles need to be created:

List of wanted articles...

Games: A bunch of high-priority game redlinks, e.g. American four-ball billiards (redirs to Four-ball billiards but not specifically covered there)
"Legends": Edwin Kelly, Charlie Peterson (pool player) (all BCA Hall of Famers); George Franklin Slosson, Maurice Daly (billiards player), Frank Ives, George Butler Sutton [not George H. Sutton, the one with no hands]
Male pool bios: Hsia Hui-kai
Female pool bios:
Male three-cushion bios: Dion Nelin & Jozef Bel Philipoom
Female carom bios: Aygen Berk Saygıner
Aristic pool bios: Nick Nikolaidis, Mark Dimick,Sebastian Giumelli, Eric Yow
Unranked in current pool but notable: Mike Eufemia, Shannon Daulton, Jimmy Reid (pool player) [speed pool champ], var. Mosconi Cup players
Non-player figures: Mitch Laurance, George Fels
Five-pins bios: Gustavo Zito
Organizations: Joss Tour
Events: WPA World Nine-ball Championships (pre-1997), BCA Open Nine-ball Championship, World 14.1 Continuous Championship, International Challenge of Champions (pool)
Media and misc.: Iwan Simonis (leading billiard cloth maker), Joss Cues (major cue mfr.), The Baron and the Kid [Johnny Cash film], Ultimate Pool Party [TV show]
And: everyone/thing listed at WP:CUEGAMES, WP:CUEEVENTS, WP:CUEORGS, WP:CUEBIOS, & WP:CUEMISC. Also a Cue sports world records article (many can be pulled from bio articles like Geet Sethi, Guinness Book will provide others, and so will BCA and other orgs., websites and books like Shamos 1999).
Meta: Outline of cue sports (OoK; cf. [1], etc.) – presently redirects to Cue sports, but this is not an OoK page.
Internal pages: Something like: [2][3]). Such pages are not fluff, but can be good places to find recruits for the project, possibly including subject-matter experts, especially if cross-referenced to the project. Also, Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Cue sports (cf. [4][5][6]).

Cleanup : Thomas Engert, Marlon Manalo
Copyedit : Jonni Fulcher
Expand : Cue sports techniques#Carom shots (section needs to exist), Straight pool, Alfredo de Oro,Jeanette Lee (pool player)
NPOV : Andy Segal (major WP:COI and WP:V issues, too), Jose Parica (it's bad!); Efren Reyes, Thomas Engert, Dennis Orcollo, Dick Jaspers
Photo : Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of cue sports and Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of cue sports people
Split : List of World Eight-ball Champions - blackball stuff needs own article {draft split from real eight-ball one (draft).
Stubs : loads of players in Category:Cue sports stubs
Update : Arcade game (link to bagatelle, bar billiards, etc.)
Verify : Cue stick (mostly WP:OR!), Frank Taberski (has major fact conflict between BCA & NYT sourcing), Russian pyramid, add sources to Unreferenced BLPs
Wikify : Chicago (pool), Jonni Fulcher
Other :
- Create timelines, both textual and graphical. See link for various guidelines and examples. We need an overall one for cue sports generally, and more specific ones as we drill down into more specific topics (timeline of nine-ball, timeline of Willie Mosconi's career, etc.).
- Form sections: Exhibition game needs section on cue sports; could later form a new article with "Main article..." xref to it. What other general articles need cue sports sections?
- CopyVio rewrite:
- Clarify: What is the "continuous pool" listed above "14.1 continuous" at Alfredo DeOro?
- Delete or defend:
- Move/Rename (and Redirect):
- Redirect:
- Unorphan:
- Ensure: that rules discussions in game articles & the Billiard techniques article do not violate WP:NOT#IINFO.
- Help fix: WP:CUEBIOS#Pool players (women) is nearly empty!
- Help develop: the lists of WP:CUEORGS and WP:CUEEVENTS
- Images: improve articles with images from commons; create pics and add them to commons as GFDL/CC-by/PD.
- Add: {{Sport overview}} to main articles of cue games that are real sports; medal table tags where they apply (see Ding Junhui for example).
- Insert: Cue sports events (tournament results, etc.) into the "year in sports" categories (e.g. 1965 in sports), using {{subst:Cue sports heading}} if that year doesn't have one yet.
- Change:
- Replace:
- Some day: Seek Featured Topic status.
- Plunder: the French article; it does have some interesting tidbits, structure and images. Check out de.wikipedia, etc., as well.
- Inter-wiki: Improve simple:Billiards and foreign-language key articles.

See also: Snooker to-do list

Note: To watchlist this to-do list, click on "watch" at top right of this table. Watching the page it is transcluded on won't watch the to-do list.

Biography: Sports and Games

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Source

Resolved

– Tag was inappropriate and has been removed.

I deplore the claim that says the source is unreliable. I am reading it from a book, and simply rewording what it says so that copyright infringements are not broken. I agree with the wikification errors, but they will be seen to when I can get around to finishing writing the article. I just had to stop earlier due to time, but I shall attempt to finish it now. Alex Holowczak 17:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who said the source was unreliable? I don't see any comments here to that effect. A book on billiards written by a billiards pro is probably more reliable than most of the sources used for most WP article (i.e., random websites). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, I saw it in the article history. Yeah, the {{Primarysources}} tag made no sense at all, since a billiards history book written by a third party is not a primary source with regard to this article (it only would be with regard to the book's author, Clive Everton). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Jr."

For a British figure, wouldn't it be more usual to have "Jnr"? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

True, but as soon as you type Ave, Dr, Jr, Rd, St, someone adds a period, or as we say, full stop. Doug butler (talk) 21:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Ave." should have a period/stop even according to the main British style guides for our register of writing (Oxford/New Hart's and Fowler's) because it is a truncation abbreviation, like "Prof.", not a contraction abbreviation that ends in the same letter as the full word, like "St", "Dr", "Jnr". Anyway, we should probably change this to "Jnr", at least if the sources are mostly using that. "Jr." seems very much an American (or North American) imposition. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I do also agree that "Jr." seems very much an American (or North American) imposition. And also, the only reason people were calling him "junior/junr" was to distinguish him from his father of the same name. But his father had given up playing Billiards by 1870 anyway. By the way I think his father's article page is titled "Sr." too. Thank you. Reddog78 (talk) 18:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Reddog78:, you've been poring over a bunch of sources on this person lately, what are they using? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:39, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. It is mostly "Jun"/ "Junr" on the British Newspaper Archive. Although these are just from search results. It is just plain "Junior" here. - Billiard and Snooker Heritage Collection - John Roberts Junior thank you. Reddog78 (talk) 17:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Articles moved to John Roberts Jr (billiards player) and John Roberts Sr respectively. While consensus emerged that the Snr/Jnr styles should not be used for the suffixes, I'm also seeing agreement that Sr./Jr. are North American styles that are dispreferred for these figures. Consequently, the Sr/Jr styles have attracted consensus as the most aligned with WP:JR/SR. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– British subjects, British naming convention. Discussion above indicates this will better agree with the sources (other than those that use the full "Junior"). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There is no British convention as alleged. This is as good as any other. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:21, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Are you alleging that this is the way modern British English would abbreviate "Junior" and "Senior", or are you saying that this is just how British English would have abbreviated them at the time these men were alive? Rreagan007 (talk) 15:55, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:JR/SR, which specifically recommends against "Snr" and "Jnr". 162 etc. (talk) 17:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, no idea when that changed. But okay, then it should move to John Roberts Jr with no dot. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very WP:SMALLDIFF from the primary redirect John Roberts Jr. $\mapsto$ John Roberts (the present Chief Justice of the United States). I'm not especially opposed, but it would at least need a hatnote to John Roberts, whom a Brit might very well call "John Roberts Jr" (The Independent) (The Sun) (The Guardian). SilverLocust 💬 05:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like it needs that hatnote regardless of any move. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:20, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If it's not moved, why would a hatnote be needed? Would people arriving at John Roberts Jr. (billiards player) tend to be confused about not finding Chief Justice Roberts? SilverLocust 💬 16:00, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're right; never mind. I forgot this has a parenthetical on it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:45, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Wikiblame says that you added that change, SMcCandlish. 😆 SilverLocust 💬 06:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why at this remove. Must have been based on what I was seeing in recent British style guides; the ones I still have on hand like New Hart's seem to prefer "Jun." (and presumably "Sen.", to match, though it wasn't specified). It's weird that I don't remember, though. Anyway, if "Jr" really is common (versus "Jun." or the disfavoured "Jnr") in non-American publications these days, then that seems like the reasonable solution, while "Jr." with the dot is clearly an Americanism. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:20, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move to John Roberts Jr (billiards player) and John Roberts Sr per above. Remove the period/full stop per WP:JR/SR, but I don't think its absence is enough of an unambiguous distinction from the WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT John Roberts Jr. to the justice, and I don't think it's much more likely (WP:PT1) that "John Roberts Jr" without the dot would refer to the billiards player rather than the justice. SilverLocust 💬 00:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.